Posts by a Christian

63

Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing in

jw
friends

my story is sub-titled so you can skip ahead to parts that interest you most.. by way of reminder, my posting on "faith in god and the church" is not meant to convert anyone, because i have been out of the preaching business now for 14-years.

i am sharing my views given the questions i get when i do post about belief in god or my association with the catholic church.. why the catholic church?

protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals have a hard spot with the roman catholic church.

a Christian

Jim,

Just in case it was the overly large font I accidentally used in my post that was causing you problems, I tried to edit my post to standard size print. But those same error messages you were getting now prevent me from doing so.

I look forward to reading your reply. You say you didn't intend for this thread to turn into a debate defending the Catholic church along with all of its highy questionable history, teachings, and practices. But I guess you asked for it. Others here have also made valid critisisms of your new found beliefs ( as well represented by Abaddon's 'frying pan into the fire' comment ). I'm sure they would all also like to read your responses to their comments. But for you to respond to all present and future Catholic critisisms that a thread such as this is sure to generate would almost certainly take far more time than you have to spend. That being the case, you may want to think twice before starting another such thread. For as they say, "If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen."

I'm certainly glad I'm not in the position where I ever have to defend any religious organization. Of course, Jesus Christ, who was totally without sin, needs no defense. And His apostles certainly need very little. After that, however, even Clarence Darrow and F. Lee Baily would almost certainly advise a client as guilty as yours to "Cop a plea." : )

Mike

63

Faith in God and the Church - Part 2 of 2 The Catholic Faith

by Amazing in

jw
friends

my story is sub-titled so you can skip ahead to parts that interest you most.. by way of reminder, my posting on "faith in god and the church" is not meant to convert anyone, because i have been out of the preaching business now for 14-years.

i am sharing my views given the questions i get when i do post about belief in god or my association with the catholic church.. why the catholic church?

protestants, especially fundamentalists and evangelicals have a hard spot with the roman catholic church.

a Christian

Jim, I'll tell you where I think you have gone wrong. To begin with, just because the "Orthodox" church and the "Roman Catholic" church can trace their histories back to the time of the apostles does not prove that either of these religious organizations is the same religious organization that was established by the apostles. Neither does it prove that either of these religious organizations would be approved of by the apostles, if the apostles were alive today. For instance, the Watchtower Society, as it exists today, can certainly trace its history back to the Watchtower Society that was established many years ago by Charles Russell. But is there any doubt that if Charles Russell was alive today that he would not even recognize today's Watchtower Society as being the same religious organization that he founded? And is there any doubt that if Charles Russell was alive today that he would view today's Watchtower Society as being an unholy perversion of the religious organization that he established? As you know, Christ prophesied that after He left this earth Satan would sew seeds of corruption throughout His church. (Matt. 13) And as you also know, the apostle Paul prophesied that after the apostles died, "Savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock." In fact, Paul said that the truly Christian religious order that he and his fellow apostles had worked so hard to establish would very soon become corrupted. For he told his contemporaries, "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. " (Acts 20:29,30)

There is little doubt that Paul was referring to a coming corruption of organized Christianity in 2 Thess. chapter 2. There he said that a "lawless" "apostacy" was "already at work" within the true Christian religious order which the apostles had established. That being the case, the fact that a modern day church organization can trace its origins back to the days of the apostles does nothing to prove that it is now an uncorrupted continuation of the truly Christian religious order established by the apostles, for true Christian doctrines, traditions, and practices were already beginning to be corrupted during the lives of the apostles.

Many of the teachings, practices, and traditions of the religious organizations which you seem to now be recommending to us here differ so greatly from the teachings of Christ and His apostles that I find it hard to believe that any well informed person of sound mind can believe that such an organization might now constitute "Christ's true church." ( I hope it's not necessary to actually innumerate all of these here for you. Many of the Roman Catholic Church's false teachings were discussed at length not too long ago on Channel C.)

How anyone can say that the Roman Catholic church is now or was ever Christ's true church after reading Paul's prophecy in 1 Timothy 4 is beyond me. There Paul wrote, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.They will forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods." In my opinion, only the spiritually blind can fail to see this prophecy for what it was.

Christians who for some reason find it necessary to identify some obviously highly corrupted church organization as "Christ's true church" and bow to their "Holy Fathers" remind me of the Israelites who insisted that they be given a visible human king. (1 Sam. 8) For some reason they found themselves unable to serve only the invisible King of Heaven, aided by His words found in the scriptures He had given them. Unlike those Israelites, the invisible King of Heaven, Jesus Christ, is the only king I need. Since leaving the JWs and becoming a Christian I have attended several churches. None of them has been anywhere near perfect. But by doing so I have been able to help my fellow Christians and they have been able to help me. In other words, I have been able to act as part of Christ's body, which has always been His only "true church."

Jim, over the years I have followed your spiritual odyssey. I am now left wondering how it is that you now find yourself where you are. Maybe it is a result of your willingness to depart from the simple teachings of Christ. This is evidenced by your now praying to the Holy Spirit, while Christ instructed His followers to "Pray this way... our Father." For Christians to pray to Christ is understandable, since the Bible tells us that Christians would recognize Christ as their Father and call Him by that name. (Isa. 9:6) But prayer to the Holy Spirit was not taught by Christ or His apostles. Of course, neither was praying to long dead Catholic "Saints." I don't know if you are doing that yet. But if you are now looking to the Roman Catholic church for spiritual guidance you will probably be doing so soon.

I can only suggest that you begin sticking closely to the teaching of Christ and His apostles as recorded in the scriptures, and stop paying so much attention to the teachings and traditions of corrupted, man made, religious organizations.

Christ's true church does not exist today in the form of any religious organization. Rather you will find Christ's true church wherever two or three of His followers are gathered together in His name, in church buildings owned by all Christian denominations and in places which have no connection to any of them.

I wish you the best in your continuing spiritual journey.

Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Proplog,

You wrote: You seem to be saying that in order to make it to the "Revelation list" absolutely every single person in a covenant relationship with God must come under it's domination.

What I am saying is that I see only one important thing that all six of the kings who made the Revelation "king list" had in common. They all, at least for a brief period of time, exercised political control over all who were in a covenant relationship with the God of the Bible.

I would be interested to know what you believe the six ancient kingdoms referred to in Revelation ("Five have fallen, one is ...") had in common, which could not be said of any other ancient nation, the distinguishing feature which put them and no other nations onto this king list. I believe that identifying that qualifying characteristic will go a long way in helping us identify the seventh king which we are told would later make Revelation's "king list" ("one is yet to come').

I know you have said you will not be participating in this thread any longer. So maybe you can send me a private message with your opinion on this.

I would also be interested in reading anyone else's opinion on this matter.

Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Proplog,

I wrote: each one of them exercised political control over ALL of God's covenant people.

You responded: You are using the word "ALL" when the correct word would be "many" or even "most". ... Each time the Jews were subjugated to a different nation the number of expatriots increased. By the Roman times there were significant Jewish populations along all the trade routes from Spain to India, and Northern Africa - even Ethiopia.

When I use the words "covenant people" I am not just referring to people who had some Jewish blood in them. Rather I am referring to Jews who strived to maintain their covenant relationship with God by attempting to follow all of his laws, including those which required them to regularly make pilgrimages to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices at its temple for forgiveness of their sins.

ALL Israelites were enslaved in Egypt. Afterwards ALL Jews who endeavored to keep all of God's laws, including those laws requiring them to offer sacrifices at Jerusalem's temple, fell under the political control of Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and then Rome. They did so as each of those nations successively exercised political control over Jerusalem. As they did so, by exersising political control over Jerusalem, "each one of them exercised political control over ALL of God's covenant people."

After God's "new covenant" replaced his "old covenant" Rome went from exercising political control over ALL of God's old covenant people to exercising political control over ALL of God's "new covenant" people, Christians. Rome's first act of such control was the execution of Jesus Christ himself. Subsequent acts of such control included various minor and major restraints imposed upon Christianity throughout the Roman empire. However, Rome exercised political control over ALL of God's new covenant people for what may have been only a brief period of time. Rome did so only until Christianity spread to parts of the world that were not controlled by the Roman empire.

Since the First Century no one nation has ever exercised political control of All of God's covenant people. In order for a government to do so again that government will have to be a world government. Since the first six kings ( Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome ) all exercised political control over ALL of God's covenant people, I think that doing so is what puts a "king" on Revelation's king list. If this is the case then the seventh king has not yet come. For in order for a government to exercise political control over ALL of God's covenant people today, Christians who now live in every nation on earth, that government will have to be a world government.

Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Heathen, You wrote: Greece never had possession of Israel. As I wrote earlier: One of the kings of Greece, Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes, for three years [168 -165 BC] completely outlawed the Jewish religion under penalty of death. Antiochus (IV) Epiphanes reigned over the Syrian division of the Greek Empire, from 175 to 164 B.C. http://www.lewrockwell.com/case/case11.html Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

I find it interesting that every one of the first six kings of the seven ("Five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come.") - if we understand them to have been Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome - had one thing in common. Despite the Watchtower's claims to the contrary, each of these nations was not necessarily the most powerful nation on earth at the time of its existence. What these "kings" had in common is that for a time each one of them exercised political control over ALL of God's covenant people.

For hundreds of years all Israelites were held as slaves in Egypt. Later the kings of Assyria first conquered Israel's northern kingdom and then went on to control all of God's people in Israel's southern kingdom of Judah by making its kings their vassals. Then Babylon took over, enslaving all of the Jewish people. Next came Persia, which first briefly continued to hold God's people as slaves before setting them free, and then later for a time forbid them to continue their work of rebuilding Jerusalem's temple. Later one of the kings of Greece, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, for three years completely outlawed the Jewish religion under penalty of death. And, of course, we know that Rome outlawed Christianity at a time when it had not yet spread beyond Rome's control. If exercising control over all of God's covenant people is what is required to make Revelation's list of seven kings, then the seventh king "yet to come" following Rome will have to be a world government, since God's covenant people, Christians, have since the time of Rome spread to every nation on earth. Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Kenneson,

You wrote: Could "get out of her my people" mean that people should get out of the Watchtower Society too?

Of course. The Watchtower Society actually enslaves its followers to the commands of men far more than most Christian sects. Because they do, if my understanding of "Babylon the Great" is correct, they are certainly just as much a part of "Babylon the Great" as any other Christian religion.

I believe that In Revelation God's people are being told to get out of Babylon the Great shortly before the return of Christ in order to avoid sharing in the destruction that will at that time come upon her. That being the case, since we now see no signs that "Babylon the Great" will soon be destroyed, I see no need for Christians to now cut all ties to most Christian sects.

However, I do see a great need for all who consider themselves to be true Christians to now cut all ties to the Watchtower Society. For the Watchtower Society is now more than just a little corrupt, as all human organizations are. The Watchtower Society is now almost totally corrupt. It is, for instance, one of only a very few so-called Christian sects which directs far more honor and glory to itself than it does to Christ.

Because the Watchtower Society is now almost totally corrupt, I believe Christians who choose to remain in association with it, by so doing, will gain nothing of spiritual value. Instead, I believe they will only bring further spiritual harm to both themselves and others.

Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Prop,

You wrote: The word "freedom" or "captivity" is not mentioned in Revelation 18. So why does this become a central part of your interpretation?

As I have said, Babylon was the nation which took God's people as captives and it was also the place where they were long held as slaves. So for the Jewish people, both at the time Revelation was written and even still today, the words "Babylon" and "bondage" were virtually synonymous. How this obvious symbolism can be missed by any reader of Revelation is beyond me.

If I were to write an allegory in which the city of "Washington D.C." played a central role, would it really be necessary for me to use the words "government" or "politics" to tip off my readers that those things were what I intended to draw attention to by my use of "Washington D.C." ?

You wrote: The command is "Get out of her my people". What are God's people doing in "false religion" or "false christianity"?

First of all, I don't view "Babylon the Great" as being "false religion" or even as being "false Christianity". I understand "Babylon the Great" as portraying corrupted Christianity, parts of which God approves of and parts of which he disapproves of. Just as I do not believe the legalistic Judaism which existed at the time of Christ, was considered by him as being "false" religion or "false" Judaism. Rather, I believe the Judaism which existed at the time of Christ was viewed by him as being a corrupted form true worship, a worship which God then partly approved of and partly disapproved of.

You wrote: If they have the label "my people" than they are free of any enslaving deception.

I disagree. Again consider the corrupted Jewish religion which existed at the time of Christ. Even though virtually all aspects of organized Judaism which then existed had become corrupted by various manmade traditions and teachings, Christ's followers and even Jesus Christ himself actively participated in Jewish religious services as they then existed.

You wrote: The command to "Get out of her" is given to those who have already left behind the enslaving ideas of this world.

I don't see it that way. I believe a time is coming when organized Christianity will be banned worldwide, possibly under penalty of death to those who continue to support it. As I said earlier, I believe this ban may be imposed upon all religion by a worldwide government. Or maybe radical Islam will one day conquer the world and then do on a global scale what it now does on a local scale when its practitioners gain political control of a region, ban all other religions and be particularly hard on Christians.

At that time many Christians will no doubt have a very hard time letting go of their particular Christian sectarian practices. By failing to understand that true Christianity is a way of life based upon a personal relationship with God and Christ, not a relationship with a manmade religious organization centered around a Church building, I fear many Christians will then refuse to "get out of" "Babylon the Great" and, by so doing, I fear many Christians may then unnecessarily end up losing their lives.

Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Prop,

You wrote: You aren't claiming that it is impossible for Babylon the Great to be a political entity. Are you? Of course not. You may be right and I may be wrong. Or I may be right and you may be wrong. Or we may both be wrong. However, I think my interpretation is a very plausible one. For Babylon was the place where God's people were held in bondage, as organized Christian religions now hold nearly all Christians in spiritual bondage. If someone's loss of freedom was not meant to be portrayed in Rev. 18 by their being a resident of "Babylon the Great" why was this symbolic entity not referred to in Rev. as "Persia the Great" or "Nineveh the Great" etc. ? Now I suppose you might say that Revelation's "Babylon the Great" may deprive its inhabitants of political freedom or economic freedom. But I don't think those freedoms are what Bible writers were ever most concerned with. Mike

73

Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

the babylon with "graven images" quoted from jeremiah and isaiah was not a religious entity but a political entity.

jeremiah 43:12. .

jeremiah 43:13. .

a Christian

Prop,

That's a very tall order. Some threads are many pages long. I read much of this thread before commenting. As I did so I think I caught your premise. You feel "Babylon the Great" was not meant to represent a religious empire or system but a commercial one. You tell us why you feel that way. I told you why I disagree. "Babylon" was certainly viewed by First Century Jews (and the New Testament was written by First Century Christian Jews) as the place of their bondage. That being the case, it seems to me that a symbolic "Babylon" might very well have been meant to represent a place where Christians would one day find themselves in bondage.

Because you started this thread does that mean no one here should, in that thread, suggest an alternative viewpoint?

Mike